Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/archive
See Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/archive for older topic discussions. Featured Article Nomination (29th July, 2008) The Jean-Luc Picard article is very detailed, including lots of references, images and a timeline of events, as well as relevant quotes and detailed background information. I would like to nominate it for FA status. TrekFan 12:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose: My main objection to this being a featured article is the quote which has come and gone several times from the top of the article; in fact, that single quote has sparked at least three edit wars. This is not the marking of a featured article if agreement cannot even come to what quote we should have up there. Not to mention there is frequent editing on this article and it is not all that stable with reverts, pasting, and removed-readded material appearing and disappearing quite frequently. I do like the article, but alas I must object for now. -FC 03:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC) ::Quote issue resolved, so I recant my oppose vote but dont want to support it just yet due to the instability of the article, large number of edits, and anon ip additions added, deleted, and re-added over the past few months. -FC 13:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': This is a fantastic article, very well detailed. As for the quote, a suggestion I would make is perhaps Admiral J.P. Hanson's line from , which went: "I've never known anyone with more drive, determination or more courage than Jean-Luc Picard." Dave 07:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC) : Comment - A fitting quote. I have added it to the page. TrekFan 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC) * Oppose for now. I too like the article. I think it is extremely detailed and has virtually everything we know about Picard in it. I do have a few concerns, some minor: *# One is the section in appendices "References in Other Trek Series". The whole section is in-universe, so it needs an in-universe title. *# I don't like the idea of the "Miscellaneous Information" section. This can surely be incorporated elsewhere into the article. *# I can't help but feel the relationships section, while nicely detailed for each person, is rather selective. Shouldn't Troi and Wesley get a short section each? *# His actions in the Klingon arc are noted in the intro paragraph, but I feel they should have their own section. Career-wise, they're certainly as significant as his encounters with the Borg and Q.– Cleanse 01:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Comment' - I have changed the title (point #1) to "References by other people". I will look at incorporating point #2 into the article itself. - TrekFan 02:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': While I do believe some of the points made here are valid, I also believe that this article is well written, and more then qualifies for FA as is. [[User:Melak|'Melak']] talk 18:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Very good article.--Aamin Marritza 13:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC) ::My first two concerns have been met, and the second two are more icing on the cake so I recant my oppose vote.– Cleanse 07:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC) * Comment: Aesthetically speaking, I'm not keen on how the italicized background comments are pushed into the same space as regular text by images placed on the left. Such information should be indented and offset from the main content, but with the left placed images the formatting that would otherwise differentiate the two pov's are crushed together, and italics alone are not enough to offset the pov change (seeing as italics also denote an alternate timeline in our style of formatting). I'd rather see that somehow resolved...images moved to the right to restore the formatting, or the indented italics moved away from the left images, before this is featured. --Alan 07:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC) ::That's a good point. I think those left images should be moved to the right.--Aamin Marritza 12:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC) :::Done.– Cleanse 12:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Comment': Come on, guys! We only need two more votes! TrekFan 17:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC) *'Conditional support' - Having thoroughly examined the article, it is certainly one of the better candidates we've had, and there are just a few things I'd like to see changed. The Guinan section should include the very important events of ; the placement of the Image:Jean-Luc Picard, 2370.jpg in the Q section seems odd, the Worf section seems short, and I'm weary about the "alternate picard"'s quotes being in the "real picard's" quotes section. Other than these minor things - absolutly fantastic article!!! - AJ Halliwell 18:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC) ::I have moved the Picard image further up so it is in the section about his time on the Enterprise. I have also added another Q image to the Q section in its place and removed the AR quotes from the quotes section. TrekFan 11:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': It's nice, detailed, has lots of good pictures. ~Anya Prynn | ''Talk'' 13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *'Support': Now that it looks like all issues have been resolved, I would like to express my support for this article to be featured, too. --36ophiuchi 17:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) *Voting concluded. Five votes for FA status. TrekFan 19:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Between Stargazer and Ent-D? Do we have any information on what Picard was doing during this period? If I recall in "All Good Things..." the scene where Picard takes command of the Ent-D has him reciting his orders; something like: "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you are hereby requested and required to..." was there a mention of his current posting in that order? "To Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commanding officer USS-shipname, you are hereby requested and required..." Or do we just not have any info? Logan 5 18:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC) Additionally, the episode seems to indicate that he was commanding a different ship when he first met Tasha Yar but I'm not sure it's ever been mentioned by name. Seems a long period for him not to be in command, or maybe he was posted to a starbase or at Starfleet Headquarters? Do we have even a non-canon mention of this time period? Logan 5 17:10, 15 Sep 2005 (UTC) :Has anyone ever speculated as to what Picard did for the nine years between commanding the Stargazer and the Enterprise? Could he have commanded another ship in that time span, or might he have left Starfleet for awhile ala James T. Kirk? ::The novel The Buried Age covers this period.– Cleanse 00:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC) First Officer on the Stargazer? I seem to recall that Riker once stated to Picard something about him being a former first officer. If this is true (I'm thinking from a second or third season episode), then Picard would have been the first officer on the Stargazer in 2333. Does any of this sound familiar or have I been daydreaming?--Tim Thomason 17:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC) :You haven't been daydreaming. I think it was during a first season episode. -Scottmz ::Is there anything that establishes that Picard was never on another ship? Or that he couldn't be First Officer of something besides a ship? ::--Commodore Sixty-Four(talk) 04:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC) First contact with Ferengi? I think that it was Jonathan Archer who made first contact with the Ferengi when they tried to steal everything of his ship. :A) That wasn't the Federation, B) He did not know they were Ferengi, never got a name. --OuroborosCobra talk 11:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC) ::Even so, it wasn't Picard who made first contact. Whilst Archer was the first Human, in , Groppler Zorn said "The Ferengi would be very interested in a base like this." Obviously there had been previous contact or the away team would have said, "Who?" True, the Ferengi were never named in but remember that many events in Enterprise came under scrutiny, many people stated that it couldn't be canon. Most of it is but it is quite hard to stay "within continuity". Dave 12:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :Picard made first contact with the Ferengi while on the , before Encounter at Farpoint. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC) :you just contradicted yourself. when picard was on the stargazer he did not know who the ferengi where. according to this line of thinking then archer would be the one who made first contact. (Grim reap 09:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)) ::You have contradicted yourself. Why wouldn't that line of thinking apply to your statement as well? Archer didn't know who they were either, and he never found out. Picard would later find out that he had met the Ferengi. I think that qualifies him as being the first to contact them.--31dot 12:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC) ::Additionally, the statement in EAF does not mean too much other than as a competitor for the base. The Federation doesn't have to have met them in order to compete with them.--31dot 12:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC) 27 First Contacts I'd think it would be interesting to try bringing together a list of Picards first contacts and see if we reach the number 27 or even go above it. This could certainly be included as a bg note IMO. Out of memory: *Q *Cytherians *Ferengi *Zalkonians *Tamarians *Borg Kennelly 17:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :There was also the Malcorians, Mintakans, and maybe the Satarrans and Lysians. I don't know about those last two, they come from . Also the Edo. Just a few more. ----Willie 17:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC) ::Were the Edo established as a "first contact"? --OuroborosCobra talk 17:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :I'll have to watch the episode again, but IIRC that was the first time humans went to Rubicun III. ----Willie 17:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC) :::Well here is Picard's captain's log from the episode. You be the judge "Captain's Log, Stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship." ::: ::::Picard did open relations with the Tamarians, but first contact ocurred a long time ago before that. There are of course the Farpoint star-jellys, 2D star-jellys, Alpha Omicron space whales, Energy cloud parasites, Quantum singularity parasites (from ), Armus, Gomtuu (sort of), Neural parasites & mothercreature, Nagilum, Velarans, the Life-cycle experiencing being, first self-aware photonic lifeform (Moriarty), first self-aware nanites, the REM-disrupting telepaths, Douwd, the non-corporeal Koinonians, Devidian humanoids and Devidian ophidians, the regular abducting aliens, the solanagen-based abducting aliens, magnascopically induced emergent lifeform. I'm sure I missed some. Any list kind of depends on if it counts, if the lifeform only interacted at some level with humans when it was discovered, as a first contact, or that first contact is made but not necessarily by Picard personally but by the ship and crew, or that contact with Picard is the first confirmed public record of the entity/race, but it has been encountered before by humans. etc. --Pseudohuman 22:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Memorable Quotes Are the quotes on personnel pages necessary? They seem to clutter up the page with all the links to each individual episode that the quote is from. They're also not consistent across pages. Some personnel have quotes some don't. Riker, Data, Yar, Troi, Wesley, (his mother has one) don't have quotes but Worf seems to have a few and they really, to me, look out of place. I'm wondering what the consensus view is here at alpha. --Morder 00:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC) :The pages without quotes are just because no one has added any yet. I don't really think 20 odd lines "clutter" a page that is 83kb long... :I think this falls squarely under Memory Alpha:Inform and entertain. They also provide additional insight into the character, whether it be Picard's speeches, Kirk's comments on women, or Worf's deadpan one-liners. – Cleanse 01:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC) No problem. By clutter I mean it's just annoying to see all the links to each episode that the quotes are from. No problem though. I'll add quotes when I find good ones...if I find good ones. --Morder 01:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC) Toehold? I don't know if this is just me, but does the phrase "gain a toehold" actually make sense? I thought the phrase was "gain a foothold". This is the sentence I am talking about: *''"...dissidents to gain a toehold on the Romulan homeworld."'' Any thoughts? TrekFan 12:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC) :Maybe they weren't big enough to have a "foot"? :D Seriously, though, toehold would imply a smaller foothold, seeing as the toe is part of the foot. It's just semantics. R2data 13:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Same rank The Background Information section has a line reading: "Other than in alternate realities, Picard is one of only two characters to hold the same rank throughout the entire series. Data is the second." What about Dr. Crusher? She was a Commander (three pips) from start to finish, wasn't she?--(unsigned) : I removed the line. I guess by "the entire series" it is referring to TNG + the TNG movies. Otherwise, you could probably add Riker (minus one brief field promotion) to that list.--Tim Thomason 04:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC) :: Riker got promoted to Captain in . -- TrekFan 18:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC) : Yes, he wasn't promoted within the series.--Tim Thomason 00:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC) :: I would say that the field promotion he got would count. The wording of the statement (to hold the same rank). Picard and Data were never seen with different ranks outside of alternate realities. -- TrekFan 00:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC) :: I have re-added the information but reworded the it slightly. It now reads: :::Other than in alternate realities, Jean-Luc Picard has always appeared as a captain, throughout the entire run of TNG and the subsequent movies. Data is the only other character to remain at the rank he started with. ::I added a similar note to the Data article. I think this note is clearer than the previous one. - TrekFan Talk 16:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Picard's age How can Picard appear in NEMESIS as a medium age man (not older than 50) but chronologicaly he has 74? :Probably the same reason McCoy can be in his 130's in . People live longer in the 24th Century. :Also, Patrick Stewart is 68, not 74.--31dot 04:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::Picard was supposed to be 74 as of Nemesis. Picard, not Stewart. --TribbleFurSuit 05:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :::Actually, I think the "68" was put in as a response to the idea that Picard appeared no older than 50. He was played by someone nearly two decades older than 50. --OuroborosCobra talk 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::::Also gotta remember that in 1987, Stewart was "only" 47 years old therefore he matched exactly the age the producers wanted, i.e. a Captain around the age of 50. He spent most of TNG in his late 40s and early 50s because back then who knew there would be so many TNG movies. Hard to believe that the series is now 21 years in the past! Anyway, I've never met him but know someone who has. From what I hear, in person you can kind of tell he's slowing down and he does appear as someone who's about to hit 70 (Stewart is actually exactly the same age as my father so I have a sort of frame of reference to compare him with). His acting has also calmed down a bit too, I've read these days he kind of just sticks to plays. It would be interesting to talk about this some more on the Patrick Stewart article; I'd be very curious if he has any health problems at this stage in his life. -FC 12:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Quotes about Picard section I know you'll want to kill me for making this section, but I thought it was appropriate given the editing wars that have gone on. I was the one who suggestion Admiral Hanson's quote, then any discussion regarding the main quote after that didn't include me. If we had up to five quotes about Picard, that would be good. That's my opinion, anyway. Then we can all stop arguing etc. Any suggestions or comments? Dave''Subspace Message'' 21:50, 23 December 2008 (UTC) :There are things I could say, but I think we should let sleeping dogs lie.--31dot 23:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC) ::Up to five quotes to do what? Up for a vote to pick one of them or put all five quotes in there? I'm confused. – Distantlycharmed 19:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC) :Five quotes that describe Picard, as said by other characters. There may not be five (I'm sure there are), but it's better than arguing over a main quote. Dave''Subspace Message'' 23:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC) :::Well dont you think it would just look really awkward both style and contents wise if you had several opening quotes for Picard up there? I am not questioning the merit of what you are suggesting, I am just wondering how it would work style-wise. – Distantlycharmed 00:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC) ::I've put it down with the rest of the quotes. There are memorable quotes, then catchphrases, and then a little section of his character being described by other people would be good as there are some fitting quotes. Dave''Subspace Message'' 01:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC) The Youngest Captain If Picard was 59 when he took command of The Enterprise, and he had 9 years off after Captaining the Stargazer, and was Captain of tha vessel for 22 years, then wouldn't he be the youngest Captain in Star Fleet Histroy Period? :It was said in dialog that Tryla Scott was the youngest ever, so the answer to your question is no.--31dot 19:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC) Picards Hair As far as I know, by reading this wiki, Picard had lost his hair completely when he was in his 40s. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that he had begun loosing his air already in his 20s, something which would seem to be confirmed by the picture of Picard in the Academy, where he is clearly bald (most probably by choice). Would he then had been wearing a wig by the time of the Nausicaan affair where he was stabbed in the heart? --The Picard 01:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC) ::Not sure where you read that, but he likely shaved his head when he was younger.--31dot 01:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC) I read that as well, that's why I wrote "Most probably by choice". I don't remember where I read about him loosing his hair already in his twentys, so I cannot confirm it..yet.. but I'll try to find where I read it. Thank you for the answer.--The Picard 01:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC) Imposter link Per the similar links on other pages, I have placed a link to the Jean-Luc Picard (impostor) page at the top as a disambiguation. Although only in this episode, it is still useful to have at the top, as many other pages (Nog (mirror), Quark (mirror), Ezri Tigan (mirror))--31dot 02:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Also see Miles O'Brien. The replicant was only in one episode, but has a link at the top. This is so users can find it easily without reading the entire article.--31dot 02:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :Without looking through the entire article? You can then say that about anything - like that one time someone got sick and was infected. And why not create one for when Picard was a Kamin in the Essik community and link that on top of his profile as well? You can then go ahead and then just have 15 links on top of his profile in case readers wouldn't wanna read the article. You're kidding. : Look, I really dont think that belongs there. It wasnt a mirror universe. There really is no reason to create a link on top of his main profile to point to the impostor in case someone were to want to know about that one episode he was someone else (??). Tuvok and Chakotay were also overtaken in one episode and acted differently - should there be a separate link created for each time and put on top of their profile? Kirk was also someone else in and there isnt a link on top of his profile. Same with Barclay, and many other characters for that matter that were in similar situations. I mean what if someone had multiple personalities in various episodes, you can't possibly add several links (one per "take over") on top of their profile pages. It is clutter up - that is why it is in the body of the text.– Distantlycharmed 03:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::I sort of agree with you but...this is an entirely new picard - a complete replacement - while the real one was imprisoned. The others you state are just the same one but taken over by someone else so they don't apply in this case. (The only exception to this is Barclay who had a doppelganger as well). Please do not revert articles just because you think they should be your way - take it to the talk page first. The item in question was added in good faith and was not obvious vandalism or anything. This helps prevent unnecessary edits and makes the community a little more civilized. — Morder 05:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC) : I agree and it was taken to talk page at some point. I didnt think 31dot was doing anything out of ill will anyway. I thought that in such a case the item in dispute stays "offline" until the discussion over it is resolved. Then someone came back, and instead of talking about it in the talk page, reverted again and started the debate in the reverts (??). Anyway thanks for the input. I really still believe that whether he was a completely different person or just overtaken by someone temporarily is, in terms of relevance to add as a link, arbitrary and splitting hairs over definitions. I could also post For Picard as Kemin in the Essik community, click here. Anyway, as much as i would love to debate all this over and over, I got a thesis to write. Ciao and thanks. – Distantlycharmed 05:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::The problem with that is it's easier to discuss when the item in question is still on the page and not removed. — Morder 05:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC) First, we do have an article on Kamin, the person who Picard lived as. As this person does not have the same name as Picard, a link at the top is not necessary, because there is nothing to confuse it with. The impostor has the same name, and someone looking for him might not know that the article is titled "Jean Luc Picard (impostor)", as with Miles O'Brien (replicant). That's not "arbitrary", that is to reduce confusion.--31dot 10:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::I can kind of see both sides of this. It is neccesary to have this link in the article but I personally think its an eye sore at the top of the article. But, I understand the views here and we also had all those problems with the quote being up there a while back. Maybe its best to put it in the body of the article or as a see also link. -FC 02:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :Believe me, no one will be looking for the alien who impersonated Jean-Luc Picard. When someone's looking for Picard, they'll be looking for Picard...not possible aliases. Unlike in mirror universe characters, what happened as part of an abduction/exchange/temp replacement scheme to Picard has no bearing on canon. I really believe that if someone wants to look at that info, they can find it in the body of the text - in conjunction with all the other things that happened to Picard. The link on top of his profile page is superfluous and you are right, it is an eye sore and distracting. *sigh* – Distantlycharmed 03:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC) You could use that reasoning to justify removing virtually any article or link- who is going to look up blouse? Or any other article like that? If we're going to have disambig links for other characters with exactly the same name (the O'Brien replicant, mirror universe characters, etc.) why not this one? If you wish to discuss the broader issue of having such links, a seperate forum discussion should be started. But as long as we have others like it, this one should stay.--31dot 13:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :Ah man, the point was not removing the article!! I didnt say remove the impostor article, I said, the link is superfluous and not needed right there, on top of his profile page like it was something so special in JLP's life and adventures that needs to be pointed out right on top of his page. The fact that he was completely replaced is an arbitrary reason to put up there as a link as opposed to when he was Borg for a while. How about a link up there pointing to Locutus - maybe someone would like to know about Picard as Locutus and not bother having to read the whole profile to get there. Let's then just add link after link for every possible contingency and scenario so it is really clear. Anyway this discussion is pointless. Gee...– Distantlycharmed 15:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC) ::::Our style at MA, which you should know by now, is to put a disambig at the top of articles to articles with similar names. That's it. That's all it is. Have a nice day. -- sulfur 15:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :Er yes i am fully aware of administrative inertia around here. Not wanting to change things around (like the whole issue with writing certain articles in the past tense no matter what and regardless of how it sounds and whether it makes sense and then this...) because changing it would be too inconvenient and newbies ...what do they know, always trying to change/improve things around here, they are such a nuisance to established policies set in stone which no one wants to deal with. Ya I'm aware. – Distantlycharmed 16:12, 5 April 2009 (UTC) If you wish to change a policy, there is a way to do so- start a Forum discussion about it. I can say, however, that it likely would not be changed due to the reasons given above. This doesn't mean that we dislike new people or new ideas, but it means that we need a compelling reason to change it. If you can provide a sufficiently persuasive reason as to why a link to an article with a similar name should be buried within another aticle to make it more difficult to find, please do so. What you consider an "improvement" might not be considered one by everyone else. This has been mentioned to you before. --31dot 17:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Does he exist? Does he really exist in this new "alternate" timeline? :What makes you think we know? --OuroborosCobra talk 07:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC) ::Even if he does/will, he won't be born for about 50 years. It doesn't matter in the slightest that this point. -- 07:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC) :*'' the United States Navy, upon which Starfleet is based, a relationship like the one between Picard and Daren would be totally against protocol since it violates military law for a commanding officer to have a relationship with a subordinate member of their command. However, as referenced in a line from where Leonard McCoy states "there aren't any regulations about romance", romantic relations between officers of the same command appear to be permitted.'' Unnecessary real world comparison and statement to refute realworld comparison. — Morder 23:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Semi-protected I have temporarily protected this page from editing by new and anonymous users due to repeated vandalism. --From Andoria with Love 05:04, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :Opening epitaph is back in play. --ChrisK 13:16, December 12, 2009 (UTC) Quotes Part VI I see a quote was added to the article. At this discussion on the archive page we agreed to not have one if one cannot be agreed on. The person who added it was probably not aware of this(which is OK) but as such I thought I would mention it here. It's a nice quote, but I'm not sure what the quote has to do with Picard. I'll reserve final judgement until someone can point that out.--31dot 02:33, December 18, 2009 (UTC) :It does seem to show Picard's personality but I say we remove it and just put a hidden note and keep it removed as it's been discussed forever and no agreement could be reached or has just gone stale. — Morder (talk) 02:43, December 18, 2009 (UTC) Removed to here--31dot 02:50, December 18, 2009 (UTC): :"If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." :: - Jean-Luc Picard, 2364